From alberto.gaitan at gmail.com Mon May 26 11:36:51 2008 From: alberto.gaitan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Gait=E1n?=) Date: Mon May 26 11:37:01 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal Message-ID: <483AD913.5050304@gmail.com> Hello, fellow dorks. Annie Drinkard, Communications Officer at our past host, Marian Koshland Science Museum of the National Academy of Sciences, sends us the following proposal for November. What say you? Any ideas? I told her I'd bring it up and we'd get back to her late this week. I think it would be useful to think about how this event might further build the DIY tech community we've spawned with DorkbotDC, Make:DC, and HacDC. Perhaps we can propose something that draws upon all three orgs' missions: How about a two- or three-day program where Make:DC brainstorms a project with attendees, HacDC builds it with them, and DorkbotDC presents the results. While thinking about this, bear in mind what we'd need from MKSM to help make this happen the right way. Alberto -- Annie's message--- I know your groups, Dorkbot DC and Make, used the museum in January. As the museum finishes its fall programming, we were hoping to tap into your brain a bit and see if your group would have an interest in hosting/running a public program this November as part of Global Entrepreneurship Week (Nov 17-23). I am including links to both past KSM events and to the Global E-Week as a bit of background information. http://www.koshland-science-museum.org/events/pastevents.jsp http://unleashingideas.org/theweek Please let me know ASAP if you all would be interested, and what ideas you may have. We can also schedule a phone call or meeting for the near future. Best, Annie -- From Paul.McCord at USPTO.GOV Mon May 26 12:19:35 2008 From: Paul.McCord at USPTO.GOV (McCord, Paul) Date: Mon May 26 12:20:17 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal References: <483AD913.5050304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <84A6ED7C13614644BD99C29FCB3329E804683F6C@EXCHANGE2.uspto.gov> Dork'ses Seems like quite an opportunity to turn kids minds on to the fact that the time to create is now. I think that the HacDC/fablab effort is a paradigm shift that will accrue to the youngsters effortlessly in due time but needs to be proselytized for now. I think that it would be best to try to establish a quick way to introduce the concepts of rapid prototyping/fabrication and then in tried and true improvisational style get the audience to collaborate with suggestions and then whip something up based on those suggestions. I guess it sounds kind of corny now that I've put it in writing, But i think that the best part of this whole ethic is that it eliminates so much of the lead time between conceptualization and realization. Hip a kid of any age to the fact that what they dream up is only steps away from being a reality and they're ready to go. I mean why stand in line to buy a ticket to take a ride when you can make the bus and drive it too. Paul -----Original Message----- From: dorkbotdc-blabber-bounces@music.columbia.edu on behalf of Alberto Gait?n Sent: Mon 5/26/2008 11:36 AM To: A discussion list for dorkbot-dc Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal Hello, fellow dorks. Annie Drinkard, Communications Officer at our past host, Marian Koshland Science Museum of the National Academy of Sciences, sends us the following proposal for November. What say you? Any ideas? I told her I'd bring it up and we'd get back to her late this week. I think it would be useful to think about how this event might further build the DIY tech community we've spawned with DorkbotDC, Make:DC, and HacDC. Perhaps we can propose something that draws upon all three orgs' missions: How about a two- or three-day program where Make:DC brainstorms a project with attendees, HacDC builds it with them, and DorkbotDC presents the results. While thinking about this, bear in mind what we'd need from MKSM to help make this happen the right way. Alberto -- Annie's message--- I know your groups, Dorkbot DC and Make, used the museum in January. As the museum finishes its fall programming, we were hoping to tap into your brain a bit and see if your group would have an interest in hosting/running a public program this November as part of Global Entrepreneurship Week (Nov 17-23). I am including links to both past KSM events and to the Global E-Week as a bit of background information. http://www.koshland-science-museum.org/events/pastevents.jsp http://unleashingideas.org/theweek Please let me know ASAP if you all would be interested, and what ideas you may have. We can also schedule a phone call or meeting for the near future. Best, Annie -- ........................................................................ .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... ........................................................................ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/dorkbotdc-blabber/attachments/20080526/b5e563f7/attachment.bin From garethbranwyn at comcast.net Tue May 27 01:23:34 2008 From: garethbranwyn at comcast.net (Gareth Branwyn) Date: Tue May 27 01:23:47 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal In-Reply-To: <84A6ED7C13614644BD99C29FCB3329E804683F6C@EXCHANGE2.uspto.gov> References: <483AD913.5050304@gmail.com> <84A6ED7C13614644BD99C29FCB3329E804683F6C@EXCHANGE2.uspto.gov> Message-ID: <8DE044A5-D780-4AE6-BA4F-DE92D5FEEDA9@comcast.net> I like this idea of doing something centered on personal fabrication/ rapid prototyping. I agree that this is a concept that's science fiction enough to get both kids and adults interested, but practical enough to give them real-world technical challenges. It'd be fun to turn on the mainstream public to an emerging technology like this that might not be on their radar. -Gareth On May 26, 2008, at 12:19 PM, McCord, Paul wrote: > > Dork'ses > Seems like quite an opportunity to turn kids minds on to the fact > that the time to create is now. I think that the HacDC/fablab > effort is a paradigm shift that will accrue to the youngsters > effortlessly in due time but needs to be proselytized for now. I > think that it would be best to try to establish a quick way to > introduce the concepts of rapid prototyping/fabrication and then in > tried and true improvisational style get the audience to > collaborate with suggestions and then whip something up based on > those suggestions. I guess it sounds kind of corny now that I've > put it in writing, But i think that the best part of this whole > ethic is that it eliminates so much of the lead time between > conceptualization and realization. Hip a kid of any age to the fact > that what they dream up is only steps away from being a reality and > they're ready to go. I mean why stand in line to buy a ticket to > take a ride when you can make the bus and drive it too. > Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: dorkbotdc-blabber-bounces@music.columbia.edu on behalf of > Alberto Gait?n > Sent: Mon 5/26/2008 11:36 AM > To: A discussion list for dorkbot-dc > Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal > > Hello, fellow dorks. Annie Drinkard, Communications Officer at our > past > host, Marian Koshland Science Museum of the National Academy of > Sciences, sends us the following proposal for November. What say you? > Any ideas? I told her I'd bring it up and we'd get back to her late > this > week. > > I think it would be useful to think about how this event might further > build the DIY tech community we've spawned with DorkbotDC, Make:DC, > and > HacDC. Perhaps we can propose something that draws upon all three > orgs' > missions: > > How about a two- or three-day program where Make:DC brainstorms a > project with attendees, HacDC builds it with them, and DorkbotDC > presents the results. > > While thinking about this, bear in mind what we'd need from MKSM to > help > make this happen the right way. > > Alberto > > -- Annie's message--- > > I know your groups, Dorkbot DC and Make, used the museum in > January. As > the museum finishes its fall programming, we were hoping to tap into > your brain a bit and see if your group would have an interest in > hosting/running a public program this November as part of Global > Entrepreneurship Week (Nov 17-23). > > I am including links to both past KSM events and to the Global E- > Week as > a bit of background information. > http://www.koshland-science-museum.org/events/pastevents.jsp > http://unleashingideas.org/theweek > > Please let me know ASAP if you all would be interested, and what ideas > you may have. We can also schedule a phone call or meeting for the > near > future. > > Best, > Annie > > -- > > > > ...................................................................... > .. > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with > electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/ > dorkbotdc ....................... > ...................................................................... > .. > > > ......................................................... > ............... > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with > electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/ > dorkbotdc ....................... > ...................................................................... > .. From rmadams at epotential.com Tue May 27 09:41:22 2008 From: rmadams at epotential.com (R Mark Adams) Date: Tue May 27 09:41:50 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal In-Reply-To: <8DE044A5-D780-4AE6-BA4F-DE92D5FEEDA9@comcast.net> References: <483AD913.5050304@gmail.com> <84A6ED7C13614644BD99C29FCB3329E804683F6C@EXCHANGE2.uspto.gov> <8DE044A5-D780-4AE6-BA4F-DE92D5FEEDA9@comcast.net> Message-ID: I think this is a great idea- Jay Swift is making some progress in the local schools, too. When we showed our RepRaps at RobotFest, the number if interested kids was amazing. This sounds like a great way to engage a whole new group of folks in DIY technology... Given the focus of the program on emerging technologies, the parallel to the personal computer Industry in its DIY era in the 70s is pretty powerful. Mark ========== R. Mark Adams, PhD Computational Biologist rmadams@epotential.com On May 27, 2008, at 1:23 AM, Gareth Branwyn wrote: > I like this idea of doing something centered on personal fabrication/ > rapid prototyping. I agree that this is a concept that's science > fiction enough to get both kids and adults interested, but practical > enough to give them real-world technical challenges. It'd be fun to > turn on the mainstream public to an emerging technology like this > that might not be on their radar. > > -Gareth > > On May 26, 2008, at 12:19 PM, McCord, Paul wrote: > >> >> Dork'ses >> Seems like quite an opportunity to turn kids minds on to the fact >> that the time to create is now. I think that the HacDC/fablab >> effort is a paradigm shift that will accrue to the youngsters >> effortlessly in due time but needs to be proselytized for now. I >> think that it would be best to try to establish a quick way to >> introduce the concepts of rapid prototyping/fabrication and then in >> tried and true improvisational style get the audience to >> collaborate with suggestions and then whip something up based on >> those suggestions. I guess it sounds kind of corny now that I've >> put it in writing, But i think that the best part of this whole >> ethic is that it eliminates so much of the lead time between >> conceptualization and realization. Hip a kid of any age to the fact >> that what they dream up is only steps away from being a reality and >> they're ready to go. I mean why stand in line to buy a ticket to >> take a ride when you can make the bus and drive it too. >> Paul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dorkbotdc-blabber-bounces@music.columbia.edu on behalf of >> Alberto Gait?n >> Sent: Mon 5/26/2008 11:36 AM >> To: A discussion list for dorkbot-dc >> Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal >> >> Hello, fellow dorks. Annie Drinkard, Communications Officer at our >> past >> host, Marian Koshland Science Museum of the National Academy of >> Sciences, sends us the following proposal for November. What say you? >> Any ideas? I told her I'd bring it up and we'd get back to her late >> this >> week. >> >> I think it would be useful to think about how this event might >> further >> build the DIY tech community we've spawned with DorkbotDC, Make:DC, >> and >> HacDC. Perhaps we can propose something that draws upon all three >> orgs' >> missions: >> >> How about a two- or three-day program where Make:DC brainstorms a >> project with attendees, HacDC builds it with them, and DorkbotDC >> presents the results. >> >> While thinking about this, bear in mind what we'd need from MKSM to >> help >> make this happen the right way. >> >> Alberto >> >> -- Annie's message--- >> >> I know your groups, Dorkbot DC and Make, used the museum in >> January. As >> the museum finishes its fall programming, we were hoping to tap into >> your brain a bit and see if your group would have an interest in >> hosting/running a public program this November as part of Global >> Entrepreneurship Week (Nov 17-23). >> >> I am including links to both past KSM events and to the Global E- >> Week as >> a bit of background information. >> http://www.koshland-science-museum.org/events/pastevents.jsp >> http://unleashingideas.org/theweek >> >> Please let me know ASAP if you all would be interested, and what >> ideas >> you may have. We can also schedule a phone call or meeting for the >> near >> future. >> >> Best, >> Annie >> >> -- >> >> >> >> ... >> ..................................................................... >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with >> electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/ >> dorkbotdc ....................... >> ... >> ..................................................................... >> >> >> > dat> >> ... >> ..................................................................... >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with >> electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/ >> dorkbotdc ....................... >> ... >> ..................................................................... > > ... > ..................................................................... > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with > electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/ > dorkbotdc ....................... > ... > ..................................................................... > From Paul.McCord at USPTO.GOV Tue May 27 09:50:11 2008 From: Paul.McCord at USPTO.GOV (McCord, Paul) Date: Tue May 27 09:50:25 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal In-Reply-To: References: <483AD913.5050304@gmail.com> <84A6ED7C13614644BD99C29FCB3329E804683F6C@EXCHANGE2.uspto.gov> <8DE044A5-D780-4AE6-BA4F-DE92D5FEEDA9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <84A6ED7C13614644BD99C29FCB3329E805990748@EXCHANGE2.uspto.gov> I think that it's super cool to be exposed to the fact that you can rapidly make something, but its awesomely super cool to realize that you can make anything (time and perpetual motion machines do not apply.) Reprap is a tech that I think expresses that. Here's a device that bends to your will as necessary and when not acting as your agent employs its own agency to self create. However, such notions of will amplification may be a little horrifying for the general pub when applied to abiding agency on the part of items presumed to lack a will. Is there any way to transport/setup resources or does this need to abide more in the realm of the descriptive than the demonstrative? Paul -----Original Message----- From: dorkbotdc-blabber-bounces@music.columbia.edu [mailto:dorkbotdc-blabber-bounces@music.columbia.edu] On Behalf Of R Mark Adams Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 9:41 AM To: dorkbotdc-blabber@dorkbot.org Cc: dorkbotdc-blabber@dorkbot.org Subject: Re: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal I think this is a great idea- Jay Swift is making some progress in the local schools, too. When we showed our RepRaps at RobotFest, the number if interested kids was amazing. This sounds like a great way to engage a whole new group of folks in DIY technology... Given the focus of the program on emerging technologies, the parallel to the personal computer Industry in its DIY era in the 70s is pretty powerful. Mark ========== R. Mark Adams, PhD Computational Biologist rmadams@epotential.com On May 27, 2008, at 1:23 AM, Gareth Branwyn wrote: > I like this idea of doing something centered on personal fabrication/ > rapid prototyping. I agree that this is a concept that's science > fiction enough to get both kids and adults interested, but practical > enough to give them real-world technical challenges. It'd be fun to > turn on the mainstream public to an emerging technology like this > that might not be on their radar. > > -Gareth > > On May 26, 2008, at 12:19 PM, McCord, Paul wrote: > >> >> Dork'ses >> Seems like quite an opportunity to turn kids minds on to the fact >> that the time to create is now. I think that the HacDC/fablab >> effort is a paradigm shift that will accrue to the youngsters >> effortlessly in due time but needs to be proselytized for now. I >> think that it would be best to try to establish a quick way to >> introduce the concepts of rapid prototyping/fabrication and then in >> tried and true improvisational style get the audience to >> collaborate with suggestions and then whip something up based on >> those suggestions. I guess it sounds kind of corny now that I've >> put it in writing, But i think that the best part of this whole >> ethic is that it eliminates so much of the lead time between >> conceptualization and realization. Hip a kid of any age to the fact >> that what they dream up is only steps away from being a reality and >> they're ready to go. I mean why stand in line to buy a ticket to >> take a ride when you can make the bus and drive it too. >> Paul >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dorkbotdc-blabber-bounces@music.columbia.edu on behalf of >> Alberto Gait?n >> Sent: Mon 5/26/2008 11:36 AM >> To: A discussion list for dorkbot-dc >> Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Marian Koshland Museum proposal >> >> Hello, fellow dorks. Annie Drinkard, Communications Officer at our >> past >> host, Marian Koshland Science Museum of the National Academy of >> Sciences, sends us the following proposal for November. What say you? >> Any ideas? I told her I'd bring it up and we'd get back to her late >> this >> week. >> >> I think it would be useful to think about how this event might >> further >> build the DIY tech community we've spawned with DorkbotDC, Make:DC, >> and >> HacDC. Perhaps we can propose something that draws upon all three >> orgs' >> missions: >> >> How about a two- or three-day program where Make:DC brainstorms a >> project with attendees, HacDC builds it with them, and DorkbotDC >> presents the results. >> >> While thinking about this, bear in mind what we'd need from MKSM to >> help >> make this happen the right way. >> >> Alberto >> >> -- Annie's message--- >> >> I know your groups, Dorkbot DC and Make, used the museum in >> January. As >> the museum finishes its fall programming, we were hoping to tap into >> your brain a bit and see if your group would have an interest in >> hosting/running a public program this November as part of Global >> Entrepreneurship Week (Nov 17-23). >> >> I am including links to both past KSM events and to the Global E- >> Week as >> a bit of background information. >> http://www.koshland-science-museum.org/events/pastevents.jsp >> http://unleashingideas.org/theweek >> >> Please let me know ASAP if you all would be interested, and what >> ideas >> you may have. We can also schedule a phone call or meeting for the >> near >> future. >> >> Best, >> Annie >> >> -- >> >> >> >> ... >> ..................................................................... >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with >> electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/ >> dorkbotdc ....................... >> ... >> ..................................................................... >> >> >> > dat> >> ... >> ..................................................................... >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with >> electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/ >> dorkbotdc ....................... >> ... >> ..................................................................... > > ... > ..................................................................... > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with > electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/ > dorkbotdc ....................... > ... > ..................................................................... > ........................................................................ .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... ........................................................................ From pkohn at mail.nih.gov Wed May 28 10:07:41 2008 From: pkohn at mail.nih.gov (Philip Kohn) Date: Wed May 28 10:16:58 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] some blather about last nights dork Message-ID: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> I really enjoyed last nights presentations. Unfortunately I arrived too late to see the Data_Scape in action. Pindar's talk really got me thinking about creativity. I would really like to know more about how things like balance, and composition are handled without randomness. I really love the idea of seeing how far you can get without any random numbers. I've always relied on some sort of random functions, even if they are carefully tuned and filtered, but in a way it is really a cop out. Most of the tools of artificial intelligence (neural nets, backprop, etc.) are designed to capture regularities in the input/output transformation. But I think art and creativity revolve around the interplay of expectations and surprises. You have to have rules, but you also have to break them, and break them the right amount and in the right contexts. You need AI tools that can take a model of the regularities and figure out how to make these interesting and strong exceptions. The worst thing you can do as an artist is to create something that looks like a mistake. (Although you can repeat that "mistake" and then it may become good art again!) The exceptions need to stand out. I have done some art evolution, using my own ratings as a fitness function. In fact I became so obsessed with it that I was up all night rating thousands of images. The best ones would get mutated to make the next batch, etc. This was in 1998, and I can't find any of the images at this point :< I really had to stop doing it because it was adversely effecting my life. Here are some of the best links: One of my heroes, Karl Sims (what a perfect name!). http://www.karlsims.com/papers/siggraph91.html http://www.karlsims.com/ Also check out his creatures that evolved in a simulated physical environment selected by their ability to walk, or swim or jump. http://www.karlsims.com/evolved-virtual-creatures.html It is amazing how "creative" some of these bots are in the way they move! I'd love to evolve some more realistic bots that could actually be built. General history of interactive evolution, art http://www.asu.edu/cfa/art/people/faculty/collins/emergence/emergence.htm An installation using interactive evolution to make abstract videos http://www.xs4all.nl/~notnot/E-volverLUMC/E-volverLUMC.html Didn't know about this one! You can evolve some pretty interesting images in a collaborative online pool. http://picbreeder.org/ Another image breeder that you can run on your own computer. http://simons.intlab.soka.ac.jp/~unemi/sbart/ There is a big problem with all this. When you have a lot of parameters, or knobs to twiddle, you need a minimum of twice that number of example datasets. So if you really want to evolve each brush stroke, you will need a lot of user input. Anything artistic is going to have zillions of parameters. Maybe that is a big part of creativity is finding your way around the space of possibilities without getting lost or overwhelmed! One solution would be to evolve a "critic" that evaluates the results, and then let it work automatically. I have some ideas about how to evolve the critic based on examples of good art that can be found easily on the web. Blabber, blabber.... From pkohn at mail.nih.gov Wed May 28 10:34:02 2008 From: pkohn at mail.nih.gov (Philip Kohn) Date: Wed May 28 10:43:10 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] interactive video installation at Artomatic In-Reply-To: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> References: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> Message-ID: <483D6D5A.20800@mail.nih.gov> Hi everyone, I forgot to announce this during the minidork period yesterday. I have an interactive video installation up at Artomatic (www.artomatic.org). It allows people to step into old TV programs like Gilligan's Island, I Love Lucy, Lost in Space and of course the original Star Trek. They can interact with the characters in the show, and also themselves since it makes several recording cycles. It also records sound, and does a couple of effects including a video stuttering that makes it look like the person and the TV characters are doing a little dance together. It is on the 9th floor near the elevators. Just go toward the old console TV sets. Capital Plaza I - corner of First & M streets NE - NY Ave Metro (1 block) Wed-Thu: 5pm-10pm; Fri-Sat: noon-2am; Sun: noon-10pm; closed Mon-Tue Free admission; donations welcome I'm attaching the obligatory artist's statement. MockTV: YOU control the horizontal When I was a kid, I watched well over 8 hours of TV a day. Some shows I loved and many more I hated, but I still watched them. At a deep and unconscious level I still live in these programs. It seemed natural, as someone who has become obsessed with video manipulation and interaction, to allow participants to place themselves in tiny slices of my core reality. We put our hands up into the projector's light to cast silly shadows on the screen, maybe even interacted with a character in the movie, hamming it up anonymously. We watch really bad TV with friends making our own humorous soundtracks. We want to "get back" at the TV, because we have little control over it's content that traps our eyes even when we don't particularly want to see what it is showing us. The installation Mocktv gives it's participants a chance to leave their mark on these old TV programs. It is also a contest where people can vote for MockTV's top clips. While clips are playing, simply clap to vote. To record, simply step on stage. The screen will go black and then a clip will come on that you will be able to step into. The clip will not be the same as the one you were watching. If you stand still, you will disappear. Movement makes whatever moves reappear. You can show just your hand, your head, or show your whole body depending on what you move. The clip will repeat several times allowing you to add multiple copies of yourself or your voice. To complete your recording, simply exit the stage area. Above all, have fun!! From mail at a-barth.info Wed May 28 11:13:12 2008 From: mail at a-barth.info (Alex Barth) Date: Wed May 28 11:13:22 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? Message-ID: Pindar van Arman started his presentation of Zanelle http://www.zanelle.com/ yesterday with a question that I felt familiar with: What's missing in all those robots like Asimo? What is it that makes them ultimately not human like even though they walk on two legs, play ball and talk to people? Pindar's approach is to teach Zanelle a very human skill: creative production, painting. A couple of years ago I explored the same question but the outcome was very different: I felt that the key was purpose. Humans haven't been "built" for a particular purpose - we pursue our own goals in a social context. Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. Watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - independent purpose and social interaction. And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't underestimate animism. It was my first dorkbot dc yesterday, I thoroughly enjoyed it, see you all soon again, Alex From mattbillings at gmail.com Wed May 28 11:53:46 2008 From: mattbillings at gmail.com (M@) Date: Wed May 28 11:53:56 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6fbef75d0805280853u2d38cc97ld536f64b5a5666b7@mail.gmail.com> How did you measure that a beer was empty? Was it a set timer or did you keep track of the mass of the can and when it didnt' decrease for a certain interval then you knew it was empty? M@ On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote: > Pindar van Arman started his presentation of Zanelle > http://www.zanelle.com/ yesterday with a question that I felt familiar > with: What's missing in all those robots like Asimo? What is it that > makes them ultimately not human like even though they walk on two > legs, play ball and talk to people? > > Pindar's approach is to teach Zanelle a very human skill: creative > production, painting. > > A couple of years ago I explored the same question but the outcome was > very different: I felt that the key was purpose. Humans haven't been > "built" for a particular purpose - we pursue our own goals in a social > context. > > Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set > out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a > robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and > ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. > > Watch the video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c > > This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a > mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the > pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) > and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two > very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - > independent purpose and social interaction. > > And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't > underestimate animism. > > It was my first dorkbot dc yesterday, I thoroughly enjoyed it, see you > all soon again, > > Alex > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > -- -------- "Actually I make more money selling magazines than I ever did at Initrode!" From mail at a-barth.info Wed May 28 12:32:04 2008 From: mail at a-barth.info (Alex Barth) Date: Wed May 28 12:32:17 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? In-Reply-To: <6fbef75d0805280853u2d38cc97ld536f64b5a5666b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6fbef75d0805280853u2d38cc97ld536f64b5a5666b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There's only so much time it can take to empty a can of beer. Was it 40 seconds for a 330ml can? I don't remember... Alex On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, M@ wrote: > How did you measure that a beer was empty? Was it a set timer or did > you keep track of the mass of the can and when it didnt' decrease for > a certain interval then you knew it was empty? > > M@ > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote: >> Pindar van Arman started his presentation of Zanelle >> http://www.zanelle.com/ yesterday with a question that I felt familiar >> with: What's missing in all those robots like Asimo? What is it that >> makes them ultimately not human like even though they walk on two >> legs, play ball and talk to people? >> >> Pindar's approach is to teach Zanelle a very human skill: creative >> production, painting. >> >> A couple of years ago I explored the same question but the outcome was >> very different: I felt that the key was purpose. Humans haven't been >> "built" for a particular purpose - we pursue our own goals in a social >> context. >> >> Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set >> out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a >> robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and >> ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. >> >> Watch the video: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c >> >> This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a >> mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the >> pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) >> and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two >> very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - >> independent purpose and social interaction. >> >> And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't >> underestimate animism. >> >> It was my first dorkbot dc yesterday, I thoroughly enjoyed it, see you >> all soon again, >> >> Alex >> ........................................................................ >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... >> ........................................................................ >> > > > > -- > -------- > "Actually I make more money selling magazines than I ever did at Initrode!" > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > From douglas at music.columbia.edu Wed May 28 15:55:20 2008 From: douglas at music.columbia.edu (douglas repetto) Date: Wed May 28 15:55:32 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] some blather about last nights dork In-Reply-To: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> References: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> Message-ID: <483DB8A8.2090407@music.columbia.edu> Sounds like a terrific meeting! One of these days I'll make it down to one... Meanwhile, there's a good list called "eugene" that covers many of the topics Philip touched on below. http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene best, douglas Philip Kohn wrote: > I really enjoyed last nights presentations. > Unfortunately I arrived too late to see the Data_Scape in action. > Pindar's talk really got me thinking about creativity. > I would really like to know more about how things like balance, and > composition > are handled without randomness. > I really love the idea of seeing how far you can get without any random > numbers. > I've always relied on some sort of random functions, even if they are > carefully tuned and filtered, > but in a way it is really a cop out. > > Most of the tools of artificial intelligence (neural nets, backprop, > etc.) are designed to capture > regularities in the input/output transformation. > But I think art and creativity revolve around the interplay of > expectations and surprises. > You have to have rules, but you also have to break them, and break them > the right amount and > in the right contexts. > You need AI tools that can take a model of the regularities and figure > out how to make these interesting > and strong exceptions. > The worst thing you can do as an artist is to create something that > looks like a mistake. > (Although you can repeat that "mistake" and then it may become good art > again!) > The exceptions need to stand out. > > I have done some art evolution, using my own ratings as a fitness function. > In fact I became so obsessed with it that I was up all night rating > thousands of images. > The best ones would get mutated to make the next batch, etc. > This was in 1998, and I can't find any of the images at this point :< > I really had to stop doing it because it was adversely effecting my life. > > > Here are some of the best links: > > One of my heroes, Karl Sims (what a perfect name!). > http://www.karlsims.com/papers/siggraph91.html > http://www.karlsims.com/ > > Also check out his creatures that evolved in a simulated physical > environment selected by their ability to walk, or swim or jump. > http://www.karlsims.com/evolved-virtual-creatures.html > It is amazing how "creative" some of these bots are in the way they move! > I'd love to evolve some more realistic bots that could actually be built. > > General history of interactive evolution, art > http://www.asu.edu/cfa/art/people/faculty/collins/emergence/emergence.htm > > An installation using interactive evolution to make abstract videos > http://www.xs4all.nl/~notnot/E-volverLUMC/E-volverLUMC.html > > > Didn't know about this one! You can evolve some pretty interesting > images in a collaborative online pool. > http://picbreeder.org/ > > Another image breeder that you can run on your own computer. > http://simons.intlab.soka.ac.jp/~unemi/sbart/ > > > > There is a big problem with all this. > When you have a lot of parameters, or knobs to twiddle, you need a > minimum of twice that number of example datasets. > So if you really want to evolve each brush stroke, you will need a lot > of user input. > Anything artistic is going to have zillions of parameters. Maybe that > is a big part of creativity is finding > your way around the space of possibilities without getting lost or > overwhelmed! > > One solution would be to evolve a "critic" that evaluates the results, > and then let it work automatically. > I have some ideas about how to evolve the critic based on examples of > good art that can be found easily on the web. > > Blabber, blabber.... > > > > > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ -- ............................................... http://artbots.org .....douglas.....irving........................ http://dorkbot.org .......................... http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp .......... repetto............. http://music.columbia.edu/organism ............................... http://music.columbia.edu/~douglas From pindar at pindar.org Wed May 28 16:08:09 2008 From: pindar at pindar.org (pindar@pindar.org) Date: Wed May 28 16:11:02 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Great meeting Message-ID: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> Thanks again for the invitation to present. Talking about my robot with others always gets me energized to make the next big improvement. I hear the call for making it appear more human, or at least robotic. I mentioned during the meeting that it is very important for me that the robot move on its own. For some reason after talking with you I am thinking the next big improvement should be making it look better. Perhaps a new body. I will keep you all updated and definitely make next meeting. Pindar From atrus at atrus.org Wed May 28 16:34:34 2008 From: atrus at atrus.org (Nikolas Coukouma) Date: Wed May 28 16:34:54 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] some blather about last nights dork In-Reply-To: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> References: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> Message-ID: <483DC1DA.70205@atrus.org> Philip Kohn wrote: > Pindar's talk really got me thinking about creativity. > I would really like to know more about how things like balance, and > composition > are handled without randomness. > I really love the idea of seeing how far you can get without any > random numbers. > I've always relied on some sort of random functions, even if they are > carefully tuned and filtered, > but in a way it is really a cop out. I'm interested in discussing this more ... possibly in an in-person meeting/get-together. I hope to stop by HacDC tonight, so if you (or other interested people) are there, that's all the merrier. A bit of background: I am a computer scientist; some would call me a mathematician as well, but I lack training in that field. I tend to take an extremely technical approach to things, which I recognize as both useful and limiting ;) I have some creative hobbies (primarily photography) and a general interest in "creative stuff." Back to the subject at-hand ... In my opinion, you can not have a system that is (independently) creative without randomness of some sort. My reasoning is that, without randomness, you are limited to a strict set of rules, which were designed by some human. I'm guessing that this objection of randomness is "use a random number as an input"; it could easily result just from measurement errors and the like ... the uncertainty inherent in the world. > Most of the tools of artificial intelligence (neural nets, backprop, > etc.) are designed to capture > regularities in the input/output transformation. Yes. Below is a lengthy digression to define some terms... * Artificial intelligence deals with "intelligent agents" - systems that perceive the state of their world and then take an action to accomplish a goal (whether its moving to a different location or changing an answer on a multiple choice test). Usually some metric is defined so its success can be measured. * Artificial neural networks consist of a connected system of nodes/vertexes, inspired by biological neurons (and bear about as much resemblance as many novels "inspired by a true story"). Each node takes one or more input and produces one output. That output can then be sent to one or more other neurons. There is no randomness; these are functions in the mathematical sense. * Backprogation is a "supervised" method for training neural networks. The network is given a test input, its output is compared to the expected output. Then blame is assigned for errors and adjustment is performed. The adjustments start closest to the output and proceed back towards the input. It's supervised because, although you're not necessarily sitting there, you have decided what the right answer is. * K-means clustering takes a collection of n objects (e.g. DVDs) with multiple attributes (e.g. each users rating is a different attribute) and puts them into k groups (e.g. 10, for whatever reason you picked it). Each item can only be assigned to one group. The goal is to make each group as similar as possible. * Genetic algorithms search for an optimal solution by generating a set/population of possible solutions and then "breeding" them. The breeding part consists of determining how good each solution is, deciding whether or not it should be discarded, mating the survivors ("crossover") to produce new solutions, and randomly each of these new solutions a bit. The crossover step keeps different parts of each mate... the core of genetic algorithms has a mathematical basis and, again, is only "inspired by" biology. > But I think art and creativity revolve around the interplay of > expectations and surprises. > You have to have rules, but you also have to break them, and break > them the right amount and > in the right contexts. > You need AI tools that can take a model of the regularities and figure > out how to make these interesting > and strong exceptions. > The worst thing you can do as an artist is to create something that > looks like a mistake. > (Although you can repeat that "mistake" and then it may become good > art again!) > The exceptions need to stand out. See genetic algorithms above; there's also a vast collection of statistical approaches, which are particularly popular for natural language stuff. A fun example is this blog haiku generator http://memes.angrygoats.net/forms/haiku http://memes.angrygoats.net/faq An example from http://memes.angrygoats.net/livejournal.com/nofcna/haiku transforming something intangible gives meaning to its existence > I have done some art evolution, using my own ratings as a fitness > function. This seems like a reasonable approach to me > Here are some of the best links: Thanks for these > There is a big problem with all this. > When you have a lot of parameters, or knobs to twiddle, you need a > minimum of twice that number of example datasets. > So if you really want to evolve each brush stroke, you will need a lot > of user input. There's quite a bit of interest in this ... among other things, Amazon has a service for paying people to complete these sorts of tasks: http://www.mturk.com/mturk/welcome A non-monetary incentive for people to participate is fun. I know there are at least a few games online there that are being used for data collection... http://www.gwap.com/ Rating communities (e.g. Flickr, Amazon) are another possible source of information... some of the work on incentives for distributed computing (donating your computer's time to some task) may also be worth looking into (e.g. lottrees). > > One solution would be to evolve a "critic" that evaluates the results, > and then let it work automatically. > I have some ideas about how to evolve the critic based on examples of > good art that can be found easily on the web. A related concept in genetic algorithms is "co-evolution"; in chess you might have a collection of black players and a collection of white players, and have them play against each other as they evolve. Cheers, -Nikolas -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/dorkbotdc-blabber/attachments/20080528/178ef901/signature.bin From dorkbotdc at dorkbot.org Wed May 28 23:56:05 2008 From: dorkbotdc at dorkbot.org (Dorkbot DC) Date: Wed May 28 23:56:15 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Great meeting In-Reply-To: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> References: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> Message-ID: <483E2955.5060603@dorkbot.org> Pindar, It was great because of the presenters and the hosts. Thanks to all! One item you mentioned in your talk was the position of Remembrancer on your Strict<===>Random continuum. Remembrancer was actually very strict, just not geared for figurative representation and purposely not anthropomorphic. (I don't get the whole anthropomorphic thing unless the robot is meant to be social or needs a human-like design for functional purposes. I'd be just as thrilled to be cared for by [grotesque] machines of loving grace.) The amount of paint it dripped at any time was proportional to the amount of items in a subset of aggregated feeds for each canvas. The amount of paint was controlled pretty exquisitely by medical grade peristaltic pumps. BTW, I didn't have to worry about paint drying because I used a closed circulatory system. Nalgene carboys held the paint and fed the pumps via silicon tubing. If you like brushes, perhaps you can enclose a tube-fed nozzle inside the brush head and limit dipping manouvers to those necessary to periodically clean the brushes. If you ride the pump, this may let you increase the speed without much splashing around. I use Windsor & Newton Galeria acrylic paint, with "extender." The latter is mixed 1:1 with water, and thins the paint without affecting the color saturation much. Thanks! Alberto On 5/28/08 4:08 PM, pindar@pindar.org wrote: > Thanks again for the invitation to present. Talking about my robot with > others always gets me energized to make the next big improvement. I > hear the call for making it appear more human, or at least robotic. I > mentioned during the meeting that it is very important for me that the > robot move on its own. For some reason after talking with you I am > thinking the next big improvement should be making it look better. > Perhaps a new body. I will keep you all updated and definitely make > next meeting. > > Pindar > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > From alberto.gaitan at gmail.com Thu May 29 00:01:37 2008 From: alberto.gaitan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Gait=E1n?=) Date: Thu May 29 00:01:49 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] some blather about last nights dork In-Reply-To: <483DB8A8.2090407@music.columbia.edu> References: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> <483DB8A8.2090407@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <483E2AA1.4030506@gmail.com> Thanks, Douglas! Let us know when you want to come down so Gareth & I can collect the appropriate tribute! Alberto On 5/28/08 3:55 PM, douglas repetto wrote: > > Sounds like a terrific meeting! One of these days I'll make it down to > one... > > > Meanwhile, there's a good list called "eugene" that covers many of the > topics Philip touched on below. > > http://www.generative.net/mailman/listinfo/eu-gene > > > > best, > douglas > > > > > Philip Kohn wrote: >> I really enjoyed last nights presentations. >> Unfortunately I arrived too late to see the Data_Scape in action. >> Pindar's talk really got me thinking about creativity. >> I would really like to know more about how things like balance, and >> composition >> are handled without randomness. >> I really love the idea of seeing how far you can get without any >> random numbers. >> I've always relied on some sort of random functions, even if they are >> carefully tuned and filtered, >> but in a way it is really a cop out. >> >> Most of the tools of artificial intelligence (neural nets, backprop, >> etc.) are designed to capture >> regularities in the input/output transformation. >> But I think art and creativity revolve around the interplay of >> expectations and surprises. >> You have to have rules, but you also have to break them, and break >> them the right amount and >> in the right contexts. >> You need AI tools that can take a model of the regularities and figure >> out how to make these interesting >> and strong exceptions. >> The worst thing you can do as an artist is to create something that >> looks like a mistake. >> (Although you can repeat that "mistake" and then it may become good >> art again!) >> The exceptions need to stand out. >> >> I have done some art evolution, using my own ratings as a fitness >> function. >> In fact I became so obsessed with it that I was up all night rating >> thousands of images. >> The best ones would get mutated to make the next batch, etc. >> This was in 1998, and I can't find any of the images at this point :< >> I really had to stop doing it because it was adversely effecting my life. >> >> >> Here are some of the best links: >> >> One of my heroes, Karl Sims (what a perfect name!). >> http://www.karlsims.com/papers/siggraph91.html >> http://www.karlsims.com/ >> >> Also check out his creatures that evolved in a simulated physical >> environment selected by their ability to walk, or swim or jump. >> http://www.karlsims.com/evolved-virtual-creatures.html >> It is amazing how "creative" some of these bots are in the way they move! >> I'd love to evolve some more realistic bots that could actually be built. >> >> General history of interactive evolution, art >> http://www.asu.edu/cfa/art/people/faculty/collins/emergence/emergence.htm >> >> An installation using interactive evolution to make abstract videos >> http://www.xs4all.nl/~notnot/E-volverLUMC/E-volverLUMC.html >> >> >> Didn't know about this one! You can evolve some pretty interesting >> images in a collaborative online pool. >> http://picbreeder.org/ >> >> Another image breeder that you can run on your own computer. >> http://simons.intlab.soka.ac.jp/~unemi/sbart/ >> >> >> >> There is a big problem with all this. >> When you have a lot of parameters, or knobs to twiddle, you need a >> minimum of twice that number of example datasets. >> So if you really want to evolve each brush stroke, you will need a lot >> of user input. >> Anything artistic is going to have zillions of parameters. Maybe that >> is a big part of creativity is finding >> your way around the space of possibilities without getting lost or >> overwhelmed! >> >> One solution would be to evolve a "critic" that evaluates the results, >> and then let it work automatically. >> I have some ideas about how to evolve the critic based on examples of >> good art that can be found easily on the web. >> >> Blabber, blabber.... >> >> >> >> >> >> ........................................................................ >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... >> ........................................................................ > From andrew at i11industries.com Thu May 29 10:14:35 2008 From: andrew at i11industries.com (Andrew Righter) Date: Thu May 29 10:14:45 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? In-Reply-To: References: <6fbef75d0805280853u2d38cc97ld536f64b5a5666b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You should bring this beauty to HacDC, I will supply the fuel. :D -Q On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Alex Barth wrote: > There's only so much time it can take to empty a can of beer. Was it > 40 seconds for a 330ml can? I don't remember... > > Alex > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, M@ wrote: > > How did you measure that a beer was empty? Was it a set timer or did > > you keep track of the mass of the can and when it didnt' decrease for > > a certain interval then you knew it was empty? > > > > M@ > > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote: > >> Pindar van Arman started his presentation of Zanelle > >> http://www.zanelle.com/ yesterday with a question that I felt familiar > >> with: What's missing in all those robots like Asimo? What is it that > >> makes them ultimately not human like even though they walk on two > >> legs, play ball and talk to people? > >> > >> Pindar's approach is to teach Zanelle a very human skill: creative > >> production, painting. > >> > >> A couple of years ago I explored the same question but the outcome was > >> very different: I felt that the key was purpose. Humans haven't been > >> "built" for a particular purpose - we pursue our own goals in a social > >> context. > >> > >> Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set > >> out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a > >> robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and > >> ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. > >> > >> Watch the video: > >> > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c > >> > >> This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a > >> mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the > >> pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) > >> and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two > >> very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - > >> independent purpose and social interaction. > >> > >> And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't > >> underestimate animism. > >> > >> It was my first dorkbot dc yesterday, I thoroughly enjoyed it, see you > >> all soon again, > >> > >> Alex > >> ........................................................................ > >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc....................... > >> ........................................................................ > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > -------- > > "Actually I make more money selling magazines than I ever did at > Initrode!" > > ........................................................................ > > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > > ........................................................................ > > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > -- Andrew Righter Independent Researcher TEL: (856) 625-4253 EMAIL: andrew@i11industries.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/dorkbotdc-blabber/attachments/20080529/10b59d2e/attachment.html From alberto.gaitan at gmail.com Thu May 29 10:17:05 2008 From: alberto.gaitan at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alberto_Gait=E1n?=) Date: Thu May 29 10:17:14 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Great meeting In-Reply-To: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> References: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> Message-ID: <483EBAE1.8000806@gmail.com> Time to add a monkey peripheral, Pindar, unless you're willing to get your brainpan fitted with a jack. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/science/29brain.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin On 5/28/08 4:08 PM, pindar@pindar.org wrote: > Thanks again for the invitation to present. Talking about my robot with > others always gets me energized to make the next big improvement. I > hear the call for making it appear more human, or at least robotic. I > mentioned during the meeting that it is very important for me that the > robot move on its own. For some reason after talking with you I am > thinking the next big improvement should be making it look better. > Perhaps a new body. I will keep you all updated and definitely make > next meeting. > > Pindar > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > From pkohn at mail.nih.gov Thu May 29 10:22:36 2008 From: pkohn at mail.nih.gov (Philip Kohn) Date: Thu May 29 10:31:59 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Great meeting In-Reply-To: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> References: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> Message-ID: <483EBC2C.3020309@mail.nih.gov> pindar@pindar.org wrote: > Thanks again for the invitation to present. Talking about my robot > with others always gets me energized to make the next big improvement. > I hear the call for making it appear more human, or at least > robotic. I mentioned during the meeting that it is very important for > me that the robot move on its own. For some reason after talking with > you I am thinking the next big improvement should be making it look > better. Perhaps a new body. I will keep you all updated and > definitely make next meeting. > > Pindar > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > I really enjoyed your presentation. If you wanted to make Zanelle even less like a printer, another direction you could go (rather than making it into a robot - which I'm not so sure about since in its present form, it is not performing a social activity) would be to look into painting techniques that are not possible with conventional printing technologies. For example, you could work with thicker paints that are mixed as they applied to make 3 dimensional color/texture mixing effects. Maybe instead of a brush, you could have a set of small nozzles, one for each color. A disposable "head" made of syringes might work. You would need some sort of motor/screw arrangement to apply controlled force to squeeze them. Then you could move the head around to mix and shape the paint into different textures and shapes. You would need a z-axis. Philip From pkohn at mail.nih.gov Thu May 29 11:13:40 2008 From: pkohn at mail.nih.gov (Philip Kohn) Date: Thu May 29 11:23:08 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] some blather about last nights dork In-Reply-To: <483DC1DA.70205@atrus.org> References: <483D672D.9050500@mail.nih.gov> <483DC1DA.70205@atrus.org> Message-ID: <483EC824.9000507@mail.nih.gov> Hi Nikolas, I love controlled randomness. It has been my bread and butter for lots of art projects. When I'm working on an art algorithm, tons of parameters pop up that need to be set. The easiest thing to do is to apply some sort of randomness. Random walks, temporal filtering, and sums of trig fuctions (with more random functions for frequency and amplitude) are some of my favorites, although I've also had good luck with random bit manipulation, Markov chains, etc. Sometimes I'll layer it so that it jumps between different random functions, since a single random function can easily become boring (randomness is still statistically predictable, and the brain adapts to the statistics pretty quickly). The thing is that if you try not to use randomness, it forces you to really think about how to translate some aesthetic principles into a set of rules. This is a lot harder to do then twiddling some random functions. What I see when I introspect about being creative or trying to do something "random", is that I am actually using rules that utilize regular cognitive processes, such as following associations between memories, or scanning my environment for some object to trigger an association. I'm just using an additional rule to try to follow associations that are unusual, personal, or very loose, so that another person would not be able to follow my thinking. I'm leveraging off the complexity of my environment and my memories. I combine things that are unrelated, or I apply some process to something that it is not usually applied to, I consider the opposite, or what it would be it be like if I took something to the other extreme from what is usual. Check out Eno's oblique strategy cards for more "creative rules". People are lousy random number generators, if you look mathematically at what they produce. I think that independent creativity is not at all random, if you define random as completely unpredictable even with perfect and complete information. The only type of true randomness I know about is certain quantum phenomena, and even there it is only our current best model. There is no practical difference between true randomness and the sort of semi-randomness you get from systems that are either complex, chaotic, or have a lot of hidden information (the brain is all of these!). Computer random functions are really semi-random since they are completely predictable if you know the seed and the algorithm. I don't believe that quantum level things are important to understanding brain function, mostly because there is no direct evidence, and no reason to believe that a system as complex as the brain needs these effects to do what it does. (I'm a neuroscientist, so I have opinions about this stuff, but it is fun to debate!) We should get together, it would be fun! Philip Nikolas Coukouma wrote: > Philip Kohn wrote: > >> Pindar's talk really got me thinking about creativity. >> I would really like to know more about how things like balance, and >> composition >> are handled without randomness. >> I really love the idea of seeing how far you can get without any >> random numbers. >> I've always relied on some sort of random functions, even if they are >> carefully tuned and filtered, >> but in a way it is really a cop out. >> > I'm interested in discussing this more ... possibly in an in-person > meeting/get-together. I hope to stop by HacDC tonight, so if you (or > other interested people) are there, that's all the merrier. > > A bit of background: I am a computer scientist; some would call me a > mathematician as well, but I lack training in that field. I tend to take > an extremely technical approach to things, which I recognize as both > useful and limiting ;) I have some creative hobbies (primarily > photography) and a general interest in "creative stuff." > > Back to the subject at-hand ... > In my opinion, you can not have a system that is (independently) > creative without randomness of some sort. My reasoning is that, without > randomness, you are limited to a strict set of rules, which were > designed by some human. I'm guessing that this objection of randomness > is "use a random number as an input"; it could easily result just from > measurement errors and the like ... the uncertainty inherent in the world. > > >> Most of the tools of artificial intelligence (neural nets, backprop, >> etc.) are designed to capture >> regularities in the input/output transformation. >> > Yes. > Below is a lengthy digression to define some terms... > * Artificial intelligence deals with "intelligent agents" - systems that > perceive the state of their world and then take an action to accomplish > a goal (whether its moving to a different location or changing an answer > on a multiple choice test). Usually some metric is defined so its > success can be measured. > * Artificial neural networks consist of a connected system of > nodes/vertexes, inspired by biological neurons (and bear about as much > resemblance as many novels "inspired by a true story"). Each node takes > one or more input and produces one output. That output can then be sent > to one or more other neurons. There is no randomness; these are > functions in the mathematical sense. > * Backprogation is a "supervised" method for training neural networks. > The network is given a test input, its output is compared to the > expected output. Then blame is assigned for errors and adjustment is > performed. The adjustments start closest to the output and proceed back > towards the input. It's supervised because, although you're not > necessarily sitting there, you have decided what the right answer is. > * K-means clustering takes a collection of n objects (e.g. DVDs) with > multiple attributes (e.g. each users rating is a different attribute) > and puts them into k groups (e.g. 10, for whatever reason you picked > it). Each item can only be assigned to one group. The goal is to make > each group as similar as possible. > * Genetic algorithms search for an optimal solution by generating a > set/population of possible solutions and then "breeding" them. The > breeding part consists of determining how good each solution is, > deciding whether or not it should be discarded, mating the survivors > ("crossover") to produce new solutions, and randomly each of these new > solutions a bit. The crossover step keeps different parts of each > mate... the core of genetic algorithms has a mathematical basis and, > again, is only "inspired by" biology. > > >> But I think art and creativity revolve around the interplay of >> expectations and surprises. >> You have to have rules, but you also have to break them, and break >> them the right amount and >> in the right contexts. >> You need AI tools that can take a model of the regularities and figure >> out how to make these interesting >> and strong exceptions. >> The worst thing you can do as an artist is to create something that >> looks like a mistake. >> (Although you can repeat that "mistake" and then it may become good >> art again!) >> The exceptions need to stand out. >> > See genetic algorithms above; there's also a vast collection of > statistical approaches, which are particularly popular for natural > language stuff. A fun example is this blog haiku generator > http://memes.angrygoats.net/forms/haiku > http://memes.angrygoats.net/faq > > An example from http://memes.angrygoats.net/livejournal.com/nofcna/haiku > > transforming something > intangible gives meaning > to its existence > > >> I have done some art evolution, using my own ratings as a fitness >> function. >> > This seems like a reasonable approach to me > >> Here are some of the best links: >> > Thanks for these > > >> There is a big problem with all this. >> When you have a lot of parameters, or knobs to twiddle, you need a >> minimum of twice that number of example datasets. >> So if you really want to evolve each brush stroke, you will need a lot >> of user input. >> > > There's quite a bit of interest in this ... among other things, Amazon > has a service for paying people to complete these sorts of tasks: > http://www.mturk.com/mturk/welcome > A non-monetary incentive for people to participate is fun. I know there > are at least a few games online there that are being used for data > collection... > http://www.gwap.com/ > Rating communities (e.g. Flickr, Amazon) are another possible source of > information... some of the work on incentives for distributed computing > (donating your computer's time to some task) may also be worth looking > into (e.g. lottrees). > > >> One solution would be to evolve a "critic" that evaluates the results, >> and then let it work automatically. >> I have some ideas about how to evolve the critic based on examples of >> good art that can be found easily on the web. >> > A related concept in genetic algorithms is "co-evolution"; in chess you > might have a collection of black players and a collection of white > players, and have them play against each other as they evolve. > > Cheers, > -Nikolas > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ From pindar at pindar.org Thu May 29 13:18:31 2008 From: pindar at pindar.org (pindar@pindar.org) Date: Thu May 29 13:21:27 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Great meeting In-Reply-To: <483EBC2C.3020309@mail.nih.gov> References: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> <483EBC2C.3020309@mail.nih.gov> Message-ID: <20080529131831.vpa0jodd8gwgcw4s@webmail.pindar.org> I hear you, but that is why I prefer brush painting. It is a non-conventional way for a printer to print. And it does mix paints both on the canvas, and as it is going back the the wells to get more. About making her more like a robot, I am not thinking humanoid. I am thinking cooler looking. Right now she is a cross between a coffee table and a coffin, with wheels. LOL. I want something that would attract attention both for what it is doing, and how it looks while it is doing it... And I want to to be made of wood. Not sure why, but wood is just an unexpected material for use in a robot. I am still thinking of how it will look... Pindar Quoting Philip Kohn : > pindar@pindar.org wrote: >> Thanks again for the invitation to present. Talking about my robot >> with others always gets me energized to make the next big >> improvement. I hear the call for making it appear more human, or at >> least robotic. I mentioned during the meeting that it is very >> important for me that the robot move on its own. For some reason >> after talking with you I am thinking the next big improvement >> should be making it look better. Perhaps a new body. I will keep >> you all updated and definitely make next meeting. >> >> Pindar >> >> ........................................................................ >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... >> ........................................................................ >> > I really enjoyed your presentation. > > If you wanted to make Zanelle even less like a printer, > another direction you could go (rather than making it into a robot - > which I'm not so > sure about since in its present form, it is not performing a social activity) > would be to look into painting techniques that are not possible with > conventional printing technologies. > For example, you could work with thicker paints that are mixed as they > applied to make 3 dimensional > color/texture mixing effects. > Maybe instead of a brush, you could have a set of small nozzles, one > for each color. > A disposable "head" made of syringes might work. You would need some > sort of motor/screw arrangement > to apply controlled force to squeeze them. > Then you could move the head around to mix and shape the paint into > different textures and shapes. > You would need a z-axis. > > Philip > > > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ From tedwards at gmail.com Thu May 29 13:24:16 2008 From: tedwards at gmail.com (Thomas Edwards) Date: Thu May 29 13:24:27 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2fd1fa350805291024n353470dbs73c69b8c8ded62eb@mail.gmail.com> I love the Bar Bot! I especially like how it begs for money! It is interesting to see how people interact with humanoid robots. I did a project called "Sycophant" which was a rolling head that locked on to viewers with IR sensors and followed them while complimenting and ingratiating itself with them: http://www.t11s.com/sycophant.html When I exhibited it at Artomatic, I noticed that some people would just sit in front of it and enjoy being complimented for quite a long time. One viewer said "Can I take it home? I'd love to have it compliment me every morning I wake up!" Similar (but without the humanoid face) was Tom Greave's "Compliment Machine": http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/20/AR2007072002123.html It would be cool to put different faces on Bar Bot and see how much money each face can "raise". Maybe have a male face, a female face, a dog face, and a cat face! -Thomas On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 8:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote: > Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set > out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a > robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and > ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. > > Watch the video: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c > > This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a > mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the > pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) > and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two > very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - > independent purpose and social interaction. > > And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't > underestimate animism. From pindar at pindar.org Thu May 29 13:46:16 2008 From: pindar at pindar.org (pindar@pindar.org) Date: Thu May 29 13:49:10 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Great meeting In-Reply-To: <483E2955.5060603@dorkbot.org> References: <20080528160809.fktacn10qogogswg@webmail.pindar.org> <483E2955.5060603@dorkbot.org> Message-ID: <20080529134616.e68vrw3nk04w4w4c@webmail.pindar.org> Alberto, I worry about the pump because whenever I switched colors, wouldn't I have to bleed it out, or pump the tube clean. With some of my algorithms, I swap paint colors constantly to mix them up. I realize everything in the world is technically possible, but I want this to paint like I do. I rather build towards adding servo motors to vary the brush stoke that make the brush stroke more efficient. Also I like that I can give it any type of paint and brush and it is ready to go be it oils, acrylic, ink, etc... A lot of people are focusing on making it faster and more efficient, but that is a low priority for me. True art takes time and patients;) That being said, ideas for making it faster are appreciated in the realm of either carrying all the paint heads with it as it moves around, moving around faster, or swapping out brush sizes. Pindar Quoting Dorkbot DC : > Pindar, > > It was great because of the presenters and the hosts. Thanks to all! > > One item you mentioned in your talk was the position of Remembrancer on > your Strict<===>Random continuum. Remembrancer was actually very > strict, just not geared for figurative representation and purposely not > anthropomorphic. (I don't get the whole anthropomorphic thing unless > the robot is meant to be social or needs a human-like design for > functional purposes. I'd be just as thrilled to be cared for by > [grotesque] machines of loving grace.) The amount of paint it dripped > at any time was proportional to the amount of items in a subset of > aggregated feeds for each canvas. The amount of paint was controlled > pretty exquisitely by medical grade peristaltic pumps. > > BTW, I didn't have to worry about paint drying because I used a closed > circulatory system. Nalgene carboys held the paint and fed the pumps > via silicon tubing. If you like brushes, perhaps you can enclose a > tube-fed nozzle inside the brush head and limit dipping manouvers to > those necessary to periodically clean the brushes. If you ride the > pump, this may let you increase the speed without much splashing around. > > I use Windsor & Newton Galeria acrylic paint, with "extender." The > latter is mixed 1:1 with water, and thins the paint without affecting > the color saturation much. > > Thanks! > > Alberto > > > > > On 5/28/08 4:08 PM, pindar@pindar.org wrote: >> Thanks again for the invitation to present. Talking about my robot >> with others always gets me energized to make the next big >> improvement. I hear the call for making it appear more human, or at >> least robotic. I mentioned during the meeting that it is very >> important for me that the robot move on its own. For some reason >> after talking with you I am thinking the next big improvement >> should be making it look better. Perhaps a new body. I will keep >> you all updated and definitely make next meeting. >> >> Pindar >> >> ........................................................................ >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... >> ........................................................................ >> > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ From mail at a-barth.info Thu May 29 14:34:23 2008 From: mail at a-barth.info (Alex Barth) Date: Thu May 29 14:34:40 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? In-Reply-To: References: <6fbef75d0805280853u2d38cc97ld536f64b5a5666b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Andrew Righter wrote: > You should bring this beauty to HacDC, I will supply the fuel. :D haha - watch out, it's got a big tank. > > -Q > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Alex Barth wrote: >> >> There's only so much time it can take to empty a can of beer. Was it >> 40 seconds for a 330ml can? I don't remember... >> >> Alex >> >> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, M@ wrote: >> > How did you measure that a beer was empty? Was it a set timer or did >> > you keep track of the mass of the can and when it didnt' decrease for >> > a certain interval then you knew it was empty? >> > >> > M@ >> > >> > >> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote: >> >> Pindar van Arman started his presentation of Zanelle >> >> http://www.zanelle.com/ yesterday with a question that I felt familiar >> >> with: What's missing in all those robots like Asimo? What is it that >> >> makes them ultimately not human like even though they walk on two >> >> legs, play ball and talk to people? >> >> >> >> Pindar's approach is to teach Zanelle a very human skill: creative >> >> production, painting. >> >> >> >> A couple of years ago I explored the same question but the outcome was >> >> very different: I felt that the key was purpose. Humans haven't been >> >> "built" for a particular purpose - we pursue our own goals in a social >> >> context. >> >> >> >> Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set >> >> out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a >> >> robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and >> >> ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. >> >> >> >> Watch the video: >> >> >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c >> >> >> >> This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a >> >> mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the >> >> pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) >> >> and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two >> >> very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - >> >> independent purpose and social interaction. >> >> >> >> And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't >> >> underestimate animism. >> >> >> >> It was my first dorkbot dc yesterday, I thoroughly enjoyed it, see you >> >> all soon again, >> >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> ........................................................................ >> >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with >> >> electricity......... >> >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc >> >> ....................... >> >> >> >> ........................................................................ >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > -------- >> > "Actually I make more money selling magazines than I ever did at >> > Initrode!" >> > ........................................................................ >> > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... >> > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... >> > ........................................................................ >> > >> ........................................................................ >> .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... >> ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... >> ........................................................................ > > > > -- > Andrew Righter > Independent Researcher > > TEL: (856) 625-4253 > EMAIL: andrew@i11industries.com > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > From mail at a-barth.info Thu May 29 14:37:49 2008 From: mail at a-barth.info (Alex Barth) Date: Thu May 29 14:37:58 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] What do Zanelle and the beer drinking Bar Bot have in common? In-Reply-To: <2fd1fa350805291024n353470dbs73c69b8c8ded62eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <2fd1fa350805291024n353470dbs73c69b8c8ded62eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Thomas, Thanks for the links. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 1:24 PM, Thomas Edwards wrote: > It would be cool to put different faces on Bar Bot and see how much > money each face can "raise". Maybe have a male face, a female face, a > dog face, and a cat face! Definitely. A first version of the bar bot had a very minimal 'face' which was pretty much just a camera on a pan/tilt head. Once we used the second version with more concrete features like "eyes" and a "mouth" (the one from the video) people started to respond much more like to a living being. Alex > > -Thomas > > > > > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 8:13 AM, Alex Barth wrote: > >> Together with a couple of friends from http://www.timesup.org I set >> out to build a self sufficient robot. The result was the bar bot: a >> robot that hangs out in a bar, scrounging money from patrons and >> ordering a beer when there's enough in its (his, her?) pocket. >> >> Watch the video: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xypy61_GB_c >> >> This project is partly a challenge to humanoid robotics (think: a >> mouse trying to piss on an elephant's leg) and partly a comment on the >> pursuit of happiness in bars (I drink and socialize, therefore I am) >> and certainly not to be taken entirely serious. Still: I think two >> very important aspects of the ultimate humanoid robot are - >> independent purpose and social interaction. >> >> And I might add: the thing needs to have a frickin face :) Don't >> underestimate animism. > ........................................................................ > .......dorkbot dc: people doing strange things with electricity......... > ................... http://dorkbot.org/dorkbotdc ....................... > ........................................................................ > From andrew at i11industries.com Thu May 29 15:38:53 2008 From: andrew at i11industries.com (Andrew Righter) Date: Thu May 29 15:39:01 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] Sunday June 1, 2008 - Introduction to Lockpicking by Deviant Ollam Message-ID: All, This is just a friendly reminder to everyone that Deviant will be at HacDC this Sunday (June 1st) from 1:00PM - 4:00PM to hold a presentation and training session on the "Introduction into Lockpicking". We would like to invite all of our members to come out and support our events as well as those interested from Dorkbot as well, if you have a list that you subscribe to that you think would be relative, shoot it to them as well ! If you don't have picks, it's ok I know Deviant always carries sets for people to play with during the training and afterwards if you talk to him. Hope to see you there ! -Q -- Andrew Righter Independent Researcher TEL: (856) 625-4253 EMAIL: andrew@i11industries.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/dorkbotdc-blabber/attachments/20080529/a55b9de3/attachment-0001.html From justin.sabe at gmail.com Sat May 31 22:37:07 2008 From: justin.sabe at gmail.com (Justin Sabe) Date: Sat May 31 22:37:19 2008 Subject: [dorkbotdc-blabber] diyfest Message-ID: on the 14th of June I'll be presenting my talk on making midi instruments at DIYfest in Baltimore. http://www.diyfest.org/ I have a full hour this time and I would love to have some dorks in the audience! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/dorkbotdc-blabber/attachments/20080531/ab5aaa7b/attachment.html