[dorkbotpdx-blabber] Techshop impressions

[Greg Borenstein]

Thanks, Dan. I think that clears up my questions, mostly.

On Feb 14, 2008, at 8:58 AM, dan p wrote:

> They said that current rates were $30/day, and they did not encorage  
> the daily as it did nothing for the community of techshop, $100/mo,  
> and ~$1100/yr and it sounded like that the rates were in question,  
> might be updated.
>
> the classes required to use the tools was in addition ~$30, and  
> other classes to actually learn about how to get something useful  
> (my words, not theirs, but I can't imagine learning how to use a  
> lathe in 1hr) more money.
>
> Once you are a member, you get access to the tools, hand tools and  
> tool cabinet are self serve, other tools you need to be checked out  
> on, but after that just sign up and use (no additional cost, but  
> some you have to pay wholesale for consumables, like the plastic for  
> the rapid prototyper)
>
>
> On 2/13/08, Greg Borenstein <greg.borenstein at gmail.com> wrote:  
> Thanks, for this terrific summary, Paul. I'd intended to go the
> meeting and then was unable due to personal obligations. This got me
> super excited about the arrival of Techshop.
>
> Was there any sense as to whether or not membership would be necessary
> for access to the tools or classes? What does that $50/month get you
> and what can you do on an a la carte basis?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Feb 13, 2008, at 9:42 AM, Paul Stoffregen wrote:
>
> > I was pretty impressed with the Techshop presentation last night,
> > after making the long trek out to Hillsboro.  For the benefit of
> > everyone who couldn't make it, here's what I remember.
> >
> > As Thomas mentioned (during the meeting), the location will be in
> > the NW industrial area, not way out in Hillsboro (and certainly not
> > at the McMenamin's they used to host the meeting).  It was said to
> > be close to a brewery.  The one mentioned (Pyramid) is actually in
> > Seattle.  It could perhaps be the Portland Brewing Company, at 2730
> > NW 31st?  The specific address wasn't given and I didn't take notes
> > on the other references that placed it within several blocks.  But
> > it's definitely going to be in NW and not far outside of Portland
> > proper.
> >
> > They mentioned creating a "heat map" of all the zip codes people
> > entered when joined their announcement list.  Apparently a large
> > portion were clustered in the North Portland area, and also some in
> > the Beaverton & Hillsboro tech area.  31 locations were considered,
> > and the distribution of zip codes weighed heavily on their decision
> > for the NW location.
> >
> > July 4 was mentioned as their goal to open.
> >
> > They have definitely selected the building.  Specific details
> > mentioned were 15000 square feet (which is double the space at Menlo
> > Park) and 22 foot high ceiling.
> >
> > Hours of operation aren't known yet.  The original (and only
> > currently open one) in Menlo Park (SF bay area) is open 9am to
> > midnight.  Their ultimate goal is to be open 24 hours a day, 7 days
> > a week.  However, it costs money to stay open longer.  They require
> > at least one paid staff person to be present at all times.  So
> > longer hours require more paid members.
> >
> > The Menlo Park location currently has 350 members.  They have a cap
> > at 500 members per location.  It sounded like they would definitely
> > go to longer hours if they had all 500 memberships sold.
> >
> > Membership is $100 per month, or $1100 per year.  They also give
> > lifetime membership as a perk to people who lend them money to use
> > as the capital to open a new location.  That's $25k, repaid at 10%
> > APR over 10 years.
> >
> > While 9 locations are opening this year, their goal is to eventually
> > open hundreds of them worldwide.  Jim briefly made mention of input
> > (perhaps a deeper relationship?) with the founder or someone from
> > Kinkos.
> >
> > Each location is forming as its own LLC.  The exact business
> > relationship wasn't clear to me, but the stated purpose was to make
> > each one fairly independent financially.
> >
> > I had gone there expecting to feel like a customer hearing a pitch
> > from a for-profit company.  They definitely are for-profit, and that
> > was mentioned.  But Jim seemed very genuinely interested in
> > community building.  That came through in many little mentions.
> > More on community building later.
> >
> > Jim (the founder and CEO) and Denney (who's opening the Portland
> > location), and pretty much all of them are makers/builders.  They
> > both were involved in the robot battle scene (Jim's "2nd car" was a
> > battle bot that cost more than his car and could tow a truck), Jim
> > worked for the Myth Busters show (which I've never seen... no TV),
> > and lots of other projects no sane person would ever devote so much
> > time to if not for the sheer love of building crazy stuff.
> >
> > There was talk about the machines.  The main point is they are
> > "standardizing" on all brand new "core machines" for all Techshop
> > locations.  When he started at Menlo Park less than 2 years ago,
> > they got all used stuff as cheap as they could.  But as they intend
> > to have lots of locations, they are aiming to have the "core" stuff
> > be the same at all locations.  Brief mention of negotiating bulk
> > purchasing of the machines was made.  Each location is probably
> > going to add some other stuff that is in demand in that region.  In
> > San Diego, for example, a number of people want to craft surf
> > boards.  Numerous times it was mentioned their goal is to have a
> > broad range of machines and tools that most individuals would need
> > to work on most types of projects.  They're trying not to focus on
> > any one particular type of thing.
> >
> > Questions about scheduling and reserving of time on machines.  While
> > they have a sign up process, it turns out in Menlo Park there is
> > only one machine that's in more demand than the available time,
> > which is the laser cutter.  They are working on acquiring a second
> > one.  A few times it was mentioned they have Bridgeport 4 milling
> > machines (2 are actually Bridgeport-like copies), so there's pretty
> > much always a machine available.  For the high-demand laser cutter,
> > sign-up times are currently 3 days to 2 weeks, which stuck with me
> > as a data point of wait times we could expect.
> >
> > Numerous machines were mentioned.  There is a "3D printer", which
> > uses strong ABS plastic, not the brittle resin normally used in
> > stereo lithography.  Lathes, milling machines, sheet metal
> > fabrication, the laser cutter, industrial sewing machines, lots of
> > other stuff.  There is a lot of info on the website, so I'm not
> > going to cover this.
> >
> > Breakage and wear-and-tear were asked about pretty much as the 2nd
> > line of questions after the location.  Tools wear out and people
> > break stuff sometimes, and they are building that into the costs
> > they pay for.  Jim did mention that it's perfectly fine, for
> > example, to bring you own end mill bit in if you're working on a
> > project and need a really sharp, perfect condition cutter.  Jim told
> > a story about a woman who mistook micrometers for C-clamps.  They
> > will try to replace stuff as it wears, but can't have everything in
> > perfect shape.
> >
> > They offer classes in 2 forms.  Well, it sounds like right now
> > they've only just started the "advanced" classes, and have mostly
> > done "basic checkout" classes.  Both types are extra cost, not
> > included in the membership fee.  Jim mentioned about half their
> > revenue comes from the classes, and they've had a lot more demand
> > for them than they'd originally expected.  $30 and 1 hour were
> > mentioned for the basic checkout, and that was on a per-machine
> > basis (or perhaps per area, it wasn't perfectly clear to me).  He
> > mentioned $50 for other classes, but I was left with the impression
> > that was still new and in development and not firm pricing.
> >
> > There was a guy (who name I don't recall) videotaping the
> > presentation, and he spoke briefly about video-based instruction.
> > Apparently there is some internal debate on whether video is part of
> > their education program (and thus paid for with class fees), or
> > should be freely available and more of a promotion and public
> > service.  The video guy was clearly wanting to publish free videos,
> > but I was left with a strong impression someone else (probably not
> > Jim) saw the video as a profit center and way to expand the
> > education program.  Jim mentioned that video will never be a
> > substitute for actual hands-on instruction.  I was left with the
> > impression that the "classes" consisted of a good portion of time
> > you actually operating the machine while the instructor watches  
> over.
> >
> > Jim also expressed some desire, though no actual plans and perhaps
> > liability obstacles to reaching out to high schools.  He definitely
> > feels it's a shame all shop programs have vanished from education,
> > and he seemed to care deeply about the long-term prospects of
> > enabling future generations to develop the interest and skills to
> > make stuff.  Liability was mentioned.  A current policy of not
> > allowing anyone under 18 inside was also mentioned.
> >
> > There were several questions about how they handle liability.  Most
> > of this was near the beginning, so I'm not covering this in
> > chronological order....  In a nutshell, they have insurance (some
> > specific details were referred to as "the secret sause" or
> > confidential business info), they require everyone to sign a waiver,
> > they require you to take a basic operation and safety class before
> > using a particular type of machine, and they try to foster a
> > community mindful safety.
> >
> > Quite a lot of talk was about community building.  There is a
> > central meeting room in Menlo Park with coffee, popcorn machine,
> > tables, chairs, etc, which serves as a place to hang out and talk
> > about projects.  Jim mentioned how interesting it is the just be
> > there and talk with people, most of whom don't really spend a lot of
> > time around anyone else who can understand what we're building
> > (friends, family, etc).  I got the sense he really valued a central
> > meeting/social space and intended to have all new Techshops with a
> > layout designed this way.
> >
> > Jim told a story about a disagreement with his former partner (who
> > he bought out and is no longer involved in Techshop).  This guy
> > wanted to hire a guy for the tool crib.  Jim felt that really
> > defeats the community aspect of the place and wants everyone to be
> > responsible for the tools.  He also mentioned that 3 months of that
> > salary would pay for the tools to be replaced anyway.  Jim feels
> > pretty strongly about trusting people who are members to take care
> > of the shop and act responsibly.  So far in Menlo Park it's worked
> > out very well.
> >
> > The other community aspect he mentioned was that the funding for
> > each location is coming from the community, in those $25k loans from
> > members.  I had expected they'd taken in some huge venture capital
> > to do all this expansion.  It wasn't really asked or mentioned if
> > they had taken outside investment, but what they did say is it's
> > pretty much loans from the community getting this thing started in
> > each location and ultimately those membership fees are going to keep
> > it going.
> >
> > Aside from the membership fees and class fees, 2 other sources of
> > revenue were mentioned.  A retail store was mentioned, where they
> > will sell raw materials.  He said the prices will be normal retail.
> > The main idea is you can get a block of metal or piece of pipe
> > without having to leave the site, and late at night after other
> > places have closed.
> >
> > They will also have some space to rent.  There will be storage areas
> > for projects, ranging from small enough for a small collection of
> > personal tools to storing a Burning Man art car (yes, he did mention
> > someone storing their Burning Man project).  In Menlo Park, they had
> > one extra small room, which they rented for $1000/month.  Since
> > then, they've had a couple dozen requests for such rooms to be
> > rented as a private work area.  They're planning to build several in
> > all new locations.
> >
> > The other detail of Menlo Park was an anecdote about how they've
> > "trashed" the building in some ways, their lease specifically says
> > they can because the building is going to be demolished after they
> > are done (I think I heard in 2 years, but not sure).  Jim mentioned
> > someone who know who as a M1 tank they might roll though the
> > building when after they're out of it....
> >
> >
> > There were a LOT of questions and details.  I'm sure I've missed
> > some stuff.
> >
> > Overall, I was pretty impressed.  In particular, I'd expected a more
> > corporate style organization, but while they most definitely are a
> > private, for-profit company, I got a very strong sense Jim and
> > Denney really do have their hearts in this and aren't just in it to
> > make a buck.
> >
> >
> > -Paul
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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