[dorkbotpdx-blabber] REMINDER: Pd workshop this Sunday.

[Mykle Hansen]

On May 19, 2009, at 11:38 AMTuesday, Hans Lindauer wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but any instruction is essentially a  
> function with inputs and outputs, the same thing like a MAX or pd  
> object.  Instructions can be combined ("abstracted" in MAX) to  
> perform more complex functions, but remain, essentially, a little  
> black (or white) box with inputs and outputs.

> So I ask myself, why can't I just chain instructions together like I  
> can in MAX to create, specifically, a program for the AVR; but more  
> generally, any computer program?  It's a different paradigm than  
> what's currently used by programmers, but I'm not seeing a real  
> functional difference - maybe that stems from my own ignorance, more  
> than anything?

well, no and yes.

this sort of visual programming paradigm has been around a long time,  
and is
useful in some contexts.  brad upchurch does a lot of stuff with a  
system called VVVV
which presents this sort of interface.  boxes, linked together in a  
sort of tree,
showing a constant flow of data from in to out, with each box  
adjusting the data
in a kind of pipeline.  it can be all you need, depending on what you  
need.

but this metaphor can break down. charts such as you're describing are  
an abstraction,
but if they abstract out the important part, then they're suddenly a  
problem,
not a solution.   for instance, if three of your functions all need to  
read & write
some internal variable in order to work, where do you draw that  
variable, to
see it?  also, recursive functions are an important part of programming,
but how do you draw them in your chart?  how do you show a function like
"printf" that's called from twenty other places in the code?  do you  
just leave
that out?

basically, you can get to this point where you find that well-designed
programs look really awful in chart form.  the chart has only two  
dimensions --
or three if you do something wild in CG -- but software flow is N- 
dimensional:
you can always add another dimension when you need one.  that's why
some people consider visual programming a crutch for people who
can't abstract well.  (*i* don't believe that, but some programmers  
do.  ymmv.)

having said that, i 'd like some kind of code-visualizer that can take  
existing
code and help show its structure, allowing me to add or remove pieces
from the picture as I feel I need to observe them more or less.  that  
sort
of thing could maybe help Ward with his optimization analysis.   i think
a holistic view of the system is hard to get in text-land, and is what
visualization is good for.

-m-

>
>
> M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 9:02 AM, Thomas Lockney  
>> <thomas at lockney.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 7:14 AM, Ward Cunningham <ward at c2.com>  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I am thinking about what Codosome-3 should be. I would like to  
>>>> make it a
>>>> server based tool (probably in rails, but maybe scala) that uses  
>>>> advanced
>>>> web programming (probably in jQuery) to configure library
>>>> components/generators in an edit/download cycle of only a few  
>>>> seconds. I'm
>>>> attracted to a web implementation because it simplifies sharing  
>>>> (inspired by
>>>> wiki).
>>>> I would be interested in collaborating with folks on such a  
>>>> project,
>>>> especially if they are more interested in exploring a new space  
>>>> than getting
>>>> done quickly.
>>>>
>>> This sounds very interesting. If you take the Scala route, I might  
>>> be
>>> interested in collaborating both for the rationale of making a  
>>> tool like
>>> this work and to give me a solid project to really let Scala sink  
>>> in a bit
>>> deeper.
>>>
>> How low-level a UI are you all willing to put up with here? I got the
>> impression that Hans was looking for a "visual programming toolset"  
>> to
>> chain blocks together. There are plenty of low-level tools, like  
>> Forth
>> and C, for this sort of thing. You can even do things like Zed Shaw's
>> "Project EaRing".
>> (http://www.zedshaw.com/repository/rubyenrails2008/build/rubyenrails_2008.pdf 
>> )
>>
>
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